- List of Dragonlance artifacts (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The discussion was inappropriately closed by Sue Rangell, a non-administrator. Per WP:NACD, "close calls and controversial decisions are better left to an administrator." In this case, four editors believed that this article should not be kept, and four were of the opposite opinion. This is a close call, requiring the weighing of arguments in the light of applicable policies and guidelines, and should be made by an administrator. I ask that an administrator reclose the discussion. I also believe that the closer's assessment of consensus was in error, but will reserve any arguments in that regard for a possible second DRV depending on how the re-closure is argued. Sandstein 22:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The discussion at User talk:Sue Rangell/Archives/Monday 18th of March 2013 09:33:17 PM#Non-Admin Closures indicates that making inappropriate XfD closures is a persistent problem with Sue Rangell. Sandstein 22:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not that it has anything to do with this particular discussion, but if you take a very close look at my NACs, you will find that the only persistant problem is reverts of my closures by non-admins, which is against the rules. Inevitably, with only an exception or two, an admin eventually comes around and closes the discussion the exact same way I did. I've been editing Wikipedia for years, I'm identified, and have Account Creation responsibilities. I think I can be trusted to close the occasional discussion. In this case, the decision seemed pretty straightforward to me. Four (5 really) of pro-policy Keeps well out-balancing two deletes which seemed rather weak to me. These things are often judgment-calls, but this particular discussion seemed pretty cut and dry to me. Thank you. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 23:11, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Four keeps, three(including nominator) deletes, and one guy saying "withholding my vote based on the new sources found". Anyway, I reverted her before on such an issue, stating I didn't think someone who wasn't an administrator could close anything where everyone wasn't in agreement. Dream Focus 23:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, and your reversion (of an
86-0 snow keep) was against the rules. Per WP:NACD only an administrator can revert a close. That revert of yours was eventually followed up by an administrator who closed the discussion the same way I did. The problem is not my close, the problem is when the closes are muddied up by people who break the rules. Now, this discussion is not about me, or some other closure, it is about List of Dragonlance artifacts, and whether the article should be Deleted instead of Kept. Can we please discuss that? --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 23:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There were 5 Keeps, and one guy who said delete, and was still discussing it, and it had not been 7 days yet. Don't distort what happened. [1] After it reopened, one more person said keep, and eventually it closed as keep. But you do NOT have the right to close something after only two days. Undid revision 526762658 by Sue Rangell (talk) you can't do that unless everyone agrees or its been 7 days) Dream Focus 00:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- And someone else then reverted you for that [2] and told you what you did was wrong. And that's not the first or only time people have told you that you are closing things inappropriately. I did not "illegally" do anything at all. You made a mistake, and two different people had to hit undo that time on you. Dream Focus 01:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- Where do you see a policy, or even a guideline, that says only an administrator can revert an improper close by a non-administrator? And this is the matter at hand, you refusing to accept you did anything wrong. Dream Focus 01:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read WP:NACD. Note that the word administer is underlined. And I will point out that my history is not the matter at hand. The matter at hand is whether or not this article should be deleted, and clearly there is no consensus for that. It would be really nice if the personal attacks could stop, and we could instead discuss the content of the article. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 02:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Question - This might seem like a dumb question, and feel free to trout me for asking, but this article wasn't deleted. Is this the proper venue for this discussion? --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 23:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- revert and let an administrator close users are split almost equally between deletion and conservation, and per WP:NACD, close-calls should be left to admins. I also completely disagree with Sue Rangell's assessment of the discussion but as Sandstein said, that can be left for later depending on how this is reclosed.Folken de Fanel (talk) 00:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Request to close - Can we close this discussion? This is not the proper venue. It is easy enough to put the article up for AfD if the editors think the article should be deleted. This discussion is wasting a lot of everyone's time. The proper venue for this discussion is AfD. Thank you. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 00:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:DRVPURPOSE, this is the appropriate venue. We're here to discuss whether it was appropriate for you to close this AfD.Folken de Fanel (talk) 00:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't make any difference. If you think the article should be deleted, then you should bring it up for AfD, where it can be properly discussed. This discussion has all the appearance of WP:WITCHHUNT, or at least that's how I feel. Some of you seem more intent on having the decision overturned for the sake of having it overturned, than for the article to be deleted. It is easy enough to overturn the closure (as that seems to be the true intent) simply by bringing the article up for AfD. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 00:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Its not a witchhunt when this keeps happening, and so many people tell you that you shouldn't be doing it, and you refuse to listen. And why are you suggesting someone bring it to AFD yet again if they don't agree with your closure? That's just plain ridiculous. Can you just admit you did something wrong, and promise not to do it yet again? Dream Focus 01:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, in the spirit of WP:AVOIDYOU, I will only respond that I am sorry that my Decision to keep the article was not embraced by the two editors above who !voted to delete. I don't see any Right or Wrong, there is no need for drama. This is simply a difference of opinion, can we please have this discussion keeping that in mind? --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 01:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- And you think that closing a discussion (where Out of 7 total !votes, only two were to delete) as a KEEP was "wrong" to the point of going through all this? You will have to forgive me if I feel a bit picked-on here. At best this is a difference of opinion, let's not use it as an excuse to burn the witch at the stake, put the article up for AfD if you think it should be deleted. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 01:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said, there were four keeps, three deletes(including nominator), and one who said he was "withholding my vote". If four people say keep and three people say delete, then its not something a non-administrator should be closing. Dream Focus 01:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There were only two !votes to delete, out of a total of 7 !votes, hardly a consensus to delete. The non-vote just commented below that he was leaning to Keep. I will also add that the two delete !votes were extremely weak and were basically dupes, while the Keeps were varied, and fell more in line with policy. This wasn't a "close discussion", it was a cut-and-dry Keep. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 01:59, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you're too involved in the general controversy surrounding your NACs to be reacting in good faith here. You should step back and let the discussion unfold before making any more extravagant and groundless claims. NACs are only acceptable when the closer doesn't have to weigh !votes, and you did just that.Folken de Fanel (talk) 02:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- To the extent that nitpicking includes pointing out when an editor completely misconstrues the statements of those with whom he is currently disputing, I plead guilty to nitpicking. You, on the other hand, might find it appropriate to apologize to Sue for the AGF failure in how you interpreted her remarks. Jclemens (talk) 04:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Folken de Fanel, I agree with your statement "NACs are only acceptable when the closer doesn't have to weigh !votes". We need to change the WP:NACD guideline section to specifically say that to avoid future problems. I joined a discussion where I mentioned that on the talk page. Dream Focus 03:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As much as I was happy with the close decision, I agree this would have been better done by an admin.....hence I'd be content with an admin re-open and close (sorry Sue). Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:46, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Revert and let administrator close. Too close for NAC. GregJackP Boomer! 01:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note not that it matters much, but I was the withholding voter and I was going to lean towards keep for a number of reasons. Web Warlock (talk) 01:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure, with no prejudice against immediate renomination of the article for deletion. The discussion ran for the alloted 7 day time period, with 4 !votes to keep, 3 !votes to delete (including the original nominator), and one effective abstention (leaning keep as noted above). With valid policy arguments on both sides of the debate, a reasonable decision on the part of an uninvolved admin would be to close with no consensus, defaulting to keep - which is the effective end result of User:Sue Rangell's non-admin closure. Assuming this resolution is taken, any subsequent renomination of the article should link this review to prevent procedural close arguments.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 02:04, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak endorse - would I, personally, have closed it? No, probably not (I've NAC'd quite a few AFDs, FWIW). But I'm not convinced that's not a matter of the closing editor taking a slightly more liberal view of NAC than I. Even a WP:SNOW NAC requires some interpretation (eg. are all votes from one wikiproject or article contributors only?) and the point of NAC is that we trust editors in good standing to use some common sense and close some things that admins haven't had a chance to get to. NAC should be obvious, but not automatic or robotic. But I also tend to operate on the basis that if editors later have a strong objection to one of my NACs then I have no objection to them asking an admin to revert/relist. I don't think a DRV is needed for that, but hey... whatever. I can't see anything hugely wrong with the close, but I also don't think the editor in question would leave WP in protest if an admin was calmly asked to relist her NAC'd AFD and did so. Stalwart111 05:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure, Trout nom. Brought to DRV based on NAC status of closer is intolerable. I'd suggest reminding nom that adminship is no big deal. --Nouniquenames 05:44, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You don't need to be an admin to evaluate consensus. Anyone can do it, and there are mechanisms like DRV to ensure get it right. Our admin corps is generally well-meaning but let's face facts: it includes a number of children and even among the adults, they're not always editing sober. If you spend any appreciable time at DRV you'll learn that discussion-closers need supervising, whether they're admins or not. The only valid question before us is whether the close was right.
On that score, I agree with Sue Rangell's assessment of the strength of the !votes, and I think that was pretty far from being a "close call". I would comment that if you'd given me a list of names participating in that debate, I could have told you how most of them would !vote without looking. JClemens wanting to keep something fictional; Folken de Fanel wanting to delete it; BOZ wanting to keep a roleplaying game-related article; Dream Focus wanting to keep anything at AfD; not exactly amazing stuff, is it? All making valid arguments, but I think that what it demonstrates is that AfD outcomes depend on who shows up. Another question that's arisen during this debate is whether NACs can be reverted by non-administrators. In my opinion if the close is early then the answer is yes, per WP:BRD; early non-admin closes are always bold. (It would be nice if we could revert early admin closes that way on the same basis, but I'm sure the sky would fall if I ever did that.) If it's a close after due process, i.e. after 168 hours had elapsed and not obviously in error, then overturning should need some kind of consensus; but it wouldn't need to be a full DRV, just dropping a note on a sysop's talk page to get the close re-assessed. The sysop might overturn it on their own authority, let it stand, or bring it here.—S Marshall T/C 08:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A little rhetorical there about Dream, as of course he does vote delete for articles which aren't net positives for the Wikipedia, such as attack pages. Otherwise your comment is spot on. Re the skyfall scenario you mention, I've long thought it's one of the communities worst mistakes not to have made you an admin. FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A lot of what's said on project pages seems to be purely political, with no relation to reality. Sadly this kind nonsense if so prevalent that even normally sensible editors like S Marshall can be influenced by it. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Careful, I didn't say that Dream Focus always !votes keep. I said two things: (1) It's not exactly amazing when Dream Focus votes "keep"; and (2) I could have predicted that he would want to keep this.—S Marshall T/C 17:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - no reason to do process for it's own sake. WilyD 10:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the closure was a correct interpretation of the discussion so whether the closer is an admin or not is irrelevant. Thryduulf (talk) 12:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse While not a complete slam-dunk, the keep votes were more convincing that the deletes, so consensus was clear enough for an experienced editor such as Sue to make a NAC. FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn This was in no way an uncontentious close. Both Delete !voters offered multiple policy-based rationales for their positions - this was not something that should have been NAC'd as Keep. Had I, as an admin, run across this, I'd have either relisted it or called it as No Consensus - it's not an obvious Keep at all. If it gets relisted I'm obviously not going to touch it, but I'd be interested to see how it was reclosed. Yunshui 雲水 15:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Reopen I agree with the final result, but had I been considering closing this--which I would not do, because I am heavily involved in the topic--I would instead have relisted for further discussion. This should not have been an NAC. The question of whether such lists are valid articles is much disputed. I very strongly think they should be so considered, and have explained why in the past, and will explain why in detail again if the afd is re-opened or there is another afd. It's not necessary to argue the matter here. Very little about articles or lists in the field of fictional elements has consistent consensus--we have tried to find an acceptable guideline so many times that I and I think everyone else much involved have given up trying, and just argue individual cases. Some afds on them will nonetheless be obvious one way or another, so I can't say afds in the field could never be the subject of a NAC. But most will not be: especially one where there is a close against an opinion expressed strongly in good faith by an experienced editor--as here; especially one where the question of the interpretation of policy is disputed--as here; especially a close that would need a discussion of why certain arguments were accepted and others rejected, not just apparently on vote-counting--as is being done here.
- Of course we could just re-nominate, but the basic purposes of Deletion Review is to correct errors in procedure--this also includes errors in the result, because correct procedure should produce a correct or at least plausible result. One of the ground at RfA which is most frequently disputed is whether the candidate has the judgement to close disputed afds, which shows the general acknowledgement that it requires certification by the community before a person should close them. (There is also a question in this case of whether an editor's experience is long & deep enough to recognize where serious problems or basic disputes are involved--another frequent consideration at RfA. I think it appropriate therefore that this close not be simply endorsed. We need to reaffirm our limits. DGG ( talk ) 21:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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